Town of Hinesburg

Planning Commission

Meeting Minutes

December 15, 2010

-Approved-

Members Present: Kyle Bostwick (Kyle B), Jean Isham (Jean I), Bob Linck (Bob L), Tom Ayer (Tom A), Johanna White (Johanna W), Ray Mainer (Ray M), Carrie Fenn (Carrie F), Tim Clancy (Tim C)

Members Absent: Joe Idanza

Also Present: Alex Weinhagen (Planning/Zoning Director), Mary Seemann (Recording Secretary), Rolf Kielman, Claire Weis, Artie Weis, Steve Giroux, Stephanie Hainley. Dorothy Pellett, Judith Chaffee, Tyler Sterling, Gil Coates, Rob & Ali Merritt, Maggie Gordon, Bill Schroeder, Brian Busier, Kathy Busier, Jonathan Trefry, Kate Dodge, Dona Walkey, John Kiedaisch, Jean Kiedaisch, Becky Busier, Kyle Busier, Marianna Hulzer

Natasha Duarte, Bill Lippert, Jim Rohed, Kathy Rohed, Patty Whitney, Sally Reiss, Cheryl Pileggi, Kathy Christman, Natacha Liuzzi, Katherine Schubart, Paul Wieczoreck, Gianetta Bertin, Jennifer Stephens, Ken Brown, Al Barber, Chuck Reis, Jason Reed, Cathy Ryan, Stewart Pierson, Bill Drew, John Bethune, George Dameron

Official Map and Hannaford Proposal on Commerce Street: Jean I called the meeting to order at 7:40 p.m. She stated the main focus of the nights meeting is the Official Map, particularly with respect to lot 15 in the Commerce Park subdivision where Hannaford has proposed to build a store. She stated to the audience that the purpose of the meeting is not about reviewing the Hannaford proposal, blocking Hannaford or discussing its impact on the town. She said there would be ample time for this discussion at the Development Review Board meetings.

Jean I stated the night’s meeting is about the Official Map and what recommendations the Planning Commission will make to the Selectboard and Development Review Board with respect to future community facilities on lot 15. She gave some general guidelines for the evenings meeting then asked Alex W to give a brief summary as to how the Official Map works.

Alex W stated the Official Map is a planning and regulatory tool which is available to all Vermont municipalities by state statute. Hinesburg adopted the Official Map in May 2009 and it was adopted as part of a very comprehensive regulatory revisions that was done for the Village Growth Area. It is literally a regulation in the form of a map. What it does is to identify areas the community feels are important for future community facilities. This is an important item when talking about the Village Growth Plan in our rezoning because the community actually told the Planning Commission, and Selectboard as well, that in order for this village to get bigger we needed to have a plan and have an idea where the important community facilities would be located to support that growth. The map does not cover the town of Hinesburg, it covers just the Village Growth Area.

Alex W went on to say the map was designed to do two things: let the community know where these future facilities are going to be located, and to allow for conversation to happen when a landowner or developer comes before the town with an application on a piece of property that has an Official Map element on it. This conversation can happen in a variety of venues and the Development Review Board is ultimately where the conversation ends. The Development Review Board is our towns board that is charged with reviewing projects based on the regulations. He went on to say since it is a regulatory tool the state statute says that when a town adopts an Official Map, if a development application cannot accommodate the community facility that is shown on the map, then the DRB has to deny that request. What the statute indicates is that should this occur, the town has 120 days to institute proceedings to acquire an interest in the property; whether that is purchase of the property, whether that is an easement, etc. The Official Map is a regulatory tool that carries a bit of responsibility on the town’s part. The way it works is if the development project CAN accommodate the facilities shown on the map then the project can move forward and go through the DRB process.

Jean I asked if there were any members present from the Steering Committee.

Rolf Kielman asked what the role of the Planning Commission is. He wanted to know if it was an advisory board to the DRB in so far as the merits of possible public uses for lot 15 in question. Alex W said yes they were.

Jean I said in any discussion and in determining the recommendations that they are going to make the commission would be interested in getting feedback from the public and in particular the Village Steering Committee.

Rolf Kielman said his committee has been discussing this parcel, lot 15, for some time and they do feel this parcel is of high importance to the village and to function potentially as a possible village resource for everyone who lives here. He said the Steering Committee saw this as a possible “Village Green” center. He stated some of the better features this parcel has compared to property located on Route 116. This portion of town will become the epicenter of residential as well as commercial. Lot 15 sits exactly at a mid-point between the Merchant’s Bank and the southern extremities of the village, just south of Buck Hill Road. It is also centrally located for the schools with equal distance between each. Rolf pointed out that 1/3 of this parcel is a Class 3 wetland. His recommendation to the Selectboard would be to take serious consideration in the use as a town green.

Carrie F from the Lot 1 committee gave a brief overview of what her committee has been doing with that property which is located on Route 116 behind the Police Station. She stated this committee was appointed by the Selectboard long before the Hannaford project arrived. She said this committee was created to explore the possible uses of this lot which is approximately 3 ½ acres. The town already owns this land and this committee has been looking into the best use of the land. They have come up with some ideas of what they would like to have. The town has been talking about combining the police and fire stations on the fire department side, and adding a community center or a meeting room that would be part of a large community center.

The Lot 1 Committee is looking at having a bus stop, parking, and space for the Farmer’s Market. She said the committee felt the best use of this property would be a town green, recreation fields, outdoor fitness area, or volleyball court. They would be open to listen to other plans. The committee has contracted with a professional landscape group and they have worked up 3 different concepts the committee has looked at. The committee will be having a public meeting January 6th to get public input on those plans. Their hope is to go to Town Meeting to get the public park started sometime this coming year.

Jean I asked if there were any members of the audience wishing to speak.

Paul Wieczoreck wanted to make a comment on what Carrie F just presented. He said it seemed like a pretty quick decision and this is the first time he had heard about the Lot 1 project. He is wondering how that will dove-tail into the discussion of lot 15. He asked if Carrie F was looking for comment on both. Carrie F said the reason she brought it up was this project has been in the works and she felt people should know about it.

John Kiedaisch stated he was rather surprised as to how far along this lot 1 project has gone without public knowledge. It has not gotten a lot of public notice. He said he has a very strong opinion that lot 15 is the right location and right size for a community facility. He feels the lot could accommodate a Farmer’s Market, recreational facilities, water facilities. The location is extremely well-centered within the village. He said he would like to see the Planning Commission recommend to the Selectboard they proceed to acquire that land and then plan for its development. He said the town could finance the purchase of the lot without going to the town asking for a large bond vote to pay for it. There are monies outside of Hinesburg that could be tapped into, and there are private donations that could be used.

John Bethune is a member of the Affordable Housing committee and stated they would love to see affordable housing on that lot with community gardens. It could be a conference or music center.

Maggie Gordon said she felt the Planning Commission had great insight into designating this lot as community use. She would not like to have her children playing close to Route 116, the lot that the lot 1 committee is developing. She said other uses for lot 15 are that it would be a good place for the library as it sits between the schools. This lot seems really important to having a walk able area, as it is already pedestrian friendly. She would like to see the town sell lot 1 and hold on to lot 15.

George Dameron thanked the Planning Commission for holding this special meeting. He stated he is a member of the Steering Committee and doesn’t have much to add to what Rolf said, just one brief point that has come up repeatedly. That is to look at the drawings and plans for the village center; they will notice that before the discussion of the Official Map if you start to build out equally on all sides you will see that lot 15 in right in the middle. He said for that reason it bears a lot of consideration from the DRB and the Selectboard. The town doesn’t have a bandstand right now and what his committee is proposing and hoping is to locate one at lot 15. As a town resident he said he could walk to a store or even drive the 15 minutes to get to Hannaford’s in Williston, but he can not walk to a village green because there really isn’t one now. That is one reason why they are urging the committee to seriously consider the proposal they present for that lot.

Cathy Ryan said she was a little confused. She said they all seem to have fantastic ideas for how this lot would be developed, if the land was owned by the town. Seeing how it is not the town’s land in order to see if this would even be feasible for the town to do something on the land we need to know how much it would cost. She said she has been to Selectboard meetings where they seem to be struggling to come up with monies for relatively small things, so how is the town going to acquire this land they want; how much would it cost us?

Jean I said at this point she didn’t know of a specified dollar amount. There are other resources the town would be able to tap if they chose to pursue the purchase of this lot.

Alex W said there is a capital budget in plan for the town which looks out into the future and budgets for large capital expenses, however that capital budget looks out 5-6 years and the build out could take 15-20 years. The Official Map doesn’t lock the town into purchasing a property and it doesn’t restrict the landowner from proposing whatever they want.

Natasha Duarte asked Alex W for clarification on the 120 days. Would the town have to purchase the property by then or would they just enter into the process of moving towards that. Alex W said the town would not have to purchase it within the 120 days but it would have to institute proceedings to acquire whatever interest the Selectboard deemed necessary. Alex W said he felt the town would have to make a very good faith effort to show it was instituting those proceedings.

Judy Chaffee said she supported the town green idea. She said she didn’t want to step on anyone’s toes but there are larger parcels of land and if some other large box store wants to come in to one of those areas, does this community have a say in any of this?

Jean I said the zoning does limit the size of large commercial buildings that come in. She reiterated the night’s meeting should focus on the Official Map and lot 15 in particular and not on the issue of whether or not another retail establishment is coming to Hinesburg.

Bill Lippert commended the Selectboard and those who are involved in using the idea of a town map. He said it was his understanding that few towns have taken this step and he feels the town officials are to be commended for having the foresight to have created this town map. Bill said thinking about this particular lot made him think of the vision that it took to create and maintain Central Park in New York City. He said someone, somewhere decided there was something to be said for public space and it took vision to be able to think that afar ahead. Bill said that is what lot 15 potentially represents for our community. It takes really looking into our future and really thinking about what the long-term value to our community is as the planning is developed. Lot 15, in his mind, represents the potential for the town to think collectively, to look ahead. We need public space to really make this the livable community that we want. He said the informal conversations he has had around town sometimes the phrase used suggests that the town might not acquire but take the land. Bill said he would like to put to rest any suggestion that the town would exercise eminent domain, as he could not support that in any way. Compensation at fair market value to the owner should be tied to the future vision of this public space.

Jean I said to her knowledge there has been no discussion of the town using eminent domain and it is her understanding of the proceeding of the Official Map that if the town does wish to acquire lot 15 there is a process we would go through and pay for it.

Bill Lippert said he thinks it is important to have that publicly stated and understood so there is no misunderstanding.

John Kiedaisch had a question on how the town could buy this land. He said he would like to draw the commission’s attention to the new Town Forest. He said that is part of a three million dollar ($3,000,000.00) project that the Land Trust entered into several years ago. It involves 620 acres of farm land and woodland and it ended up that the town very generously voted to contribute $100,000.00 toward those 3 million dollars of the budget cost. He stated that $100,000.00 is a lot for our town, it’s a small percentage of what the project cost but the Land Trust was able to get the monies to do that by using outside sources and he said he knows there are similar sources for the development of lot 15. If an agreement is reached between the landowner and the town in terms of cost, he doesn’t see a roadblock. He said he felt it would be backwards, to decide not to do this because we don’t have the money. He said he thought the town could find the money to do it. The important thing is to look into the future and doing whatever we need to do now to accomplish that.

Ken Brown jokingly said he wanted to take all the credit Bill Lippert had given for the Official Map, but passed that credit onto Alex Weinhagen for badgering his committee (the Selectboard) to adopt an Official Town Map.

Claire Weiss said she just wanted to ask for whatever consideration there can be between this committee that has been meeting for Lot 1, which the town already owns and lot 15. There seems to be some overlapping of ideas of interest to what now lot 15 is now being looked into. She said she thought lot 15 is better suited for the public services. A bus stop would make sense on Route 116 especially with Kinney’s being a commercial type area plus the Police Station and Fire Department, but she said she didn’t think it would be well suited for public uses that have been outlined. She asked whatever the town can do to coordinate these so they aren’t moving ahead with one project that seems to have a fair amount of steam and at the same time have a unique opportunity, possibly with outside funding, to purchase the other lot. Claire stated she is talking 20-30 years out, all of this doesn’t have to happen right away but we are in a situation where we do have to respond about lot 15.

Chuck Reiss said he seconded the idea of putting a band shell on lot 15. He said a couple of years ago there was an idea of putting a band shell on the corner by the school, down by the parking lot. One of the reasons they shied away from that is because it was too close to the road and the road noise that is a real issue when there is a concert. Lot 15 is the best lot to put a shell. He said he would also like to point out it shouldn’t be just a band shell, there can be theatrical productions held there. For outside entertainment lot 15 is the best lot.

Jim Rohed said it seemed to him that this is the last good parcel of land in Hinesburg as a possible candidate for “green space”.

Cheryl Pileggi said she had been spending time on the internet checking this whole thing out. She said lot 15 has a lot of natural assets; it is perfectly centered, it is away from the noise of Route 116, it has the brook by it and she would love to see it as “green space”.

Bill Drew, a village resident and business owner said reflecting on some of the comments he has heard and read regarding lot 15, his take on this is that most people would like to see it preserved as town space with perhaps a bandstand. He said many of the examples being used of other towns; most of those towns were built around a center green. There is an authenticity that exists and many of us relate to and yearn for and wish our town could be. He said he thought many are trying to create something that we wish this town was, but it actually isn’t. Hinesburg should embrace what it is.

Jean I asked if there were any other comments or questions from the public and with no response closed the public portion of the meeting at 8:50 p.m.

Bob L asked Alex W in the Town Plan Revision, do they have the Official Map officially incorporated into the Town Plan now, is it referenced and are the definitions there or did the commission not deal with that.

Alex W said they had dealt with that so part of the update to the Town Plan was to recognize that we have an official map now and to actually include it as another map.

Joe I said what he heard tonight echoed what the commissioners had discussed amongst themselves. One thing that had been mentioned here, maybe not brought up so much, but this is a wetland area: it is a Class 3 wetland area, it is a concern.

The commissioners went on to discuss storm water treatment aspects.

Jean I asked if there was a contract out for someone to do some work on storm water in the village. Alex W said yes, that they as a commission identified storm water planning for the growth area in particular, as one of the top priority issues some time ago. In the current fiscal year the town has money to spend on doing some planning on that and were able to secure a municipal planning grant to help us pay for that. He said after the first of the year he will be sending out proposals to bring on a consultant to help identify location for storm water treatment not site by site treatment, but larger collection treatment areas. That will actually build on work that has already been done this year by the LaPlatte Watershed partnership. They hired a consultant to do some of the preliminary work and our project will hopefully build on that.

Jean I said she recalls those discussions and the discussions all along have been that the Planning Commission has to give some consideration to storm water and how we (the town) are going to deal with it in the future. Johanna W said she has the same recollection regarding the storm water. She went on to say the quietness of lot 15 versus Route 116 is quite different. She said at the Farmer’s Market one can’t hear well so to have music along Route 116 does not make any sense.

Bob L said he was not present when the commission had discussions on uses for lot 15 but as he looks at the future needs of the community and hearing the discussion tonight, he said he has concerns that if they pass up the opportunity to make use of lot 15, for the public facilities that have been described the town will be missing a great opportunity. He said the commission should be thinking hard about those uses to make sure they don’t allow use that may preclude our opportunity to use the site in the future.

Carrie F said she too liked the idea of preserving lot 15 space as a “green area”. Having the canal with the walk next to it and perhaps having other municipal use such as storm water treatment she thinks it is a good spot. Lot 1 is something the committee has been working on since March. She apologized that not everyone knew about it before tonight. She said she felt the town could use all the “green space” they can get.

Kyle B asked if the Commissioners knew if they can even use lot 15 for some of the things they had talked about like a town green. He said people have referred to the lot as a swamp or all wetlands. He asked if the town puts a band shell there would there be an outcry from Thistle Hill residents who may be opposed to musicians who want to play in the shell and the residents don’t want to hear it all summer. Kyle B said he just wants to make sure this would be the lot that we can actually do what has been discussed or is it going to be land that we can’t use 10 months out of the year because it is too wet. Kyle B stressed he did not want the commissioners or town to think of this lot as something they would like it to be only to find out it can’t ever be that.

Jean I said her understanding was that there is a portion of the lot that is a Class 3 Wetlands that can never be built on.

Alex W said that was not true, there is a portion of the property that is a Class 3 Wetland area and the Hannaford’s application has done a good job of delineating them. Hannaford had a preliminary conversation with the Federal Regulatory Body, which is the Army Corps of Engineers about impact on that portion. State and Federal regulations do allow some impacts to wetland areas. He gave an example of building on wetlands, the Middlebury Bank.

Tom A said after listening to the audience tonight he understands how much people want a town green and he said he can envision one but as a large tax payer in town he wonders if the town can afford it. He said until he can actually see the money in front of the commission he is not convinced. He went on to say that there is very little commercial space in the town and lot 15 happens to be one of them. He said it seems to him if the town is going to set aside commercial space maybe it should be used that way to build up the tax base a bit. He stated that is one of the problems in town, just the overwhelming property taxes. He reiterated he can envision the green but to keep in mind that lot 1, the parcel Carrie F has been working on is already town owned. The question in his mind is “do we want go through the whole rig-a-morole to make this work, is it worth it and can the town afford it”.

Tim C said he agreed with Tom A. He said he has a hard time recommending something like a town green, meeting space etc, and feels the town should have a strong tax base. He also has concerns recommending something when we (the commissioners) really have no idea on how the town might be able to pull it off in terms of financials. He suggested it might be a good idea to get people who are interested in such things, to pull them together to explore what the town might do or how the town might fund/finance purchase of a piece of land like lot 15. Tim C said again he is strongly in favor of having a good tax base because some tax payers are struggling.

Ray M said he felt there had been good comments, like what Tom A said about the tax base. Not only does the town have to pay for the land but the town will also lose the taxes that would otherwise be paid by the store. He wondered what Hinesburg will look like in 40 years and said he does worry about the transition from a largely rural area to a little more suburban or urban area. The town has a once in a lifetime opportunity. If they pass it up there will never be another chance. Ray M said hearing what the public had to say tonight he would like to recommend that the commission explore lot 15 as a town green.

Jean I said what she was hearing from the commissioners was that the recommendation should be is to explore lot 15 as a town green or green space or a possible combination with storm water treatment. She asked Alex W how they should proceed.

Alex W said it depends on how the commission wants to be involved in the process. His recommendation was that they (the commissioners) make some sort of formal feedback to both the Selectboard and the Development Review Board because the DRB will be starting their work on reviewing this project on January 4th. Should this (the Official Map designation) become a stumbling block and the board deny the project based on that, it will be up to the Selectboard to institute proceedings to potentially acquire interest and they (the Selectboard) will have a time frame in which to do it. He said the Selectboard needs to hear the input for the simple reason of budgeting and suggested a draft of recommendations be written and discussed at the next meeting.

Jean I felt a better way to do it would be to write a letter where the commission could also include the concerns that Tom and Tim expressed.

Bob L said he was inclined to at least give some sense of the Planning Commission in terms of their general direction on it. He said he could imagine something along the lines of the Planning Commission conveying to the Selectboard and the Development Review Board that lot 15, in the PC's opinion is highly valued for its present and future public uses and needs, including such things as a bandstand, park and storm water treatment area.

Jean I said she would draft something, have Alex W refine it a bit and then email it out to all the members so they can look at it before the next meeting, and then at the next meeting take a formal vote on it.

Tim C asked if the commission would be recommending to the Selectboard they start formally looking at this in more detail. Tim said his recommendation would be to explore and develop an option for use. He agreed with one audience member who asked how they could recommend something when we don’t have any idea of the impact would be to the town. There are practical matters associated with taxes and purchases that would have to be made. Part of the commissions recommendation is to kick off the process to preserve the option and start pulling together some actual facts.

Joe I agreed and said this is really a three step process: the first is for the Planning Commission to be explicit in what they were thinking when they designated lot 15 on the Official Map, what was the intended use, second is what does it take for the town to acquire the land, and lastly to balance the price against the perceived usage and decide whether it still makes sense or not. You can’t do the third one until you do the first and second. The job before the commission tonight is really to answer the first question: “What is the best use for that property?”

Jean I said the procedure going forward is going to be a Selectboard decision. The Selectboard is the one who is going to have to initiate the cost benefit analysis to negotiate, to know what a price is going to be.

Ray M said he wonders what Kinney’s is thinking. Hannaford’s wants to put in a pharmacy and Kinney’s may be saying Hinesburg is not big enough for two pharmacies.

Joe I felt the commissioners should not really be talking about that. He stated their job was to look at the Official Map and they will have to realize at the same time this property has been zoned commercial for years.

Ray M said he was not trying to say that the town should have a Kinney’s and not a Hannaford’s, but in terms of lost taxes he is not sure the town can support both places.

Jean I said the commissioners can not let that become a part of their consideration in the decision making process, that is not the commissions function.

Bob L said the point is well taken and if they, in their statement, suggest the lost taxes issue there is some balancing factors in that recommendation. He said they should be careful on how they word that.

Alex W said it was also important to note it is incumbent upon an applicant to demonstrate that their project will accommodate the community facilities. The Hannaford project is not the only project that has been considered for lot 15. He said his point is that on the tax base issue it is very possible that another commercial use could be proposed for this lot that would garner and bolster the tax base while still providing space for some community facilities. This lot was zoned commercial, has been zoned commercial for some time.

Tom A said the recommendation he would like to see is just to explore what it is going to take to acquire lot 15. If that is the way the town really feels about it he said he thinks this should be the first step. The financial aspect is paramount because the town already owns thousands of acres of land and it may not be in the middle of the village but it is already property that isn’t being taxed and as somebody who is being taxed on over 300 acres, it adds up, and it adds up big time. If we don’t need it he would hate for the town to acquire it. He said the town doesn’t need to be paying anymore then what it is already paying for just to say the town has it.

Jean I said let’s see about drafting a response and at the next meeting the commission will try to get it out. She felt the commission has to make a determination if they want to recommend to the Selectboard that they pursue lot 15, and it will be up to them if it is feasible to go forward with it.

Minutes from December 15, 2010: Ray M made a motion to accept as amended, 8-0 Jean I abstained.

Ray M made a motion to adjourn the meeting, Tim C seconded.

Jean I adjourned the meeting at 9:35 p.m.

Respectfully Submitted,

Mary Seemann

Recording Secretary